00:00:00,460 --> 00:00:28,900 [Jennifer Madigan]
[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to Message Received, a podcast by Syntax. I'm Jennifer Madigan. On this show, we talk about how messages actually land, how strategy, storytelling, and audience insights come together, and why some ideas cut through while others don't. Each episode, I'll sit down with people who shape narratives for a living, leaders, builders, and communicators who understand what you say and how you say it really matters. Let's get into it.
00:00:30,540 --> 00:01:16,180 [Jennifer Madigan]
Today's guest is Joanne Wu, director of news and information at CTV Ottawa. Joanne has worked in newsrooms for more than 25 years, shaping coverage of some of the biggest, most memorable moments, elections of all levels, historical moments around the globe, telethons, food drives. If you've seen it on local or national news, Joanne has likely had a hand in producing it or something like it over the years. Joanne is a longtime friend and former boss of mine, I have to say. I've always admired her ability to understand how to shape a story for whoever her audience is. I learned a lot from Joanne when we worked together. I know she's mentored and coached countless others. She was a big part of me getting to Afghanistan as an embedded reporter back in 2009. I could go on and on, but I'm sure you just want me to get to the conversation. So Joanne, welcome. Thank you so much for your time.
00:01:16,180 --> 00:01:21,500 [Joanne Woo]
Thank you for having me. Oh my goodness, that's quite the intro. If you needed to shorten that, you can absolutely do that.
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:33,220 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs] But no, you've done so much, and you've worked in news for so long. I could have made it a much longer intro, to be honest. I'm just wondering, what keeps you in news? Like, what has kept you doing this for so long?
00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:56,620 [Joanne Woo]
I think it's, you know, a combination obviously of impact and unpredictability. You know, you walk into your shift with a plan. You have an idea of what maybe your top stories are, but within minutes, you could be covering something else, and I think that part never really gets old. There's also the responsibility piece, right? I think when you do it long enough, you realize you're helping shape how a community understands itself, and you know, that's pretty hard to walk away from.
00:01:56,620 --> 00:02:02,280 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. What are some of your top moments in the newsroom, if you had to pick just one or two? I know there's so many.
00:02:02,280 --> 00:03:06,060 [Joanne Woo]
Oh my goodness, that's really hard. I would say, I mean, first and foremost, breaking news, when it's done right and your team is moving fast and everything falls together, you know, no chaos, clarity under pressure. You know, those days when they're executed really well, that's obviously the highlights. But for me, I would say, you know, being in the business as, as long as I have, you know, watching team members achieve career moments or milestones, probably one of the biggest things. A few years back, we went through a major transformation, moving from two-person teams to just one person, you know, and they would shoot and edit and report, do all their things. And, um, you know, I think I'll- I'm gonna give Peter Sperling a, a shout-out here because I was trying to get him to do live hits for the longest time, and, um, finally when I moved to the national bureau, he had his first shot at doing a live hit, and the joy that I felt when he knocked it out of the park, that to me is probably one of the biggest highlights is seeing somebody that you had a small part in developing, and then they reach a, a career moment and a milestone that maybe they didn't think that they could, and then, and they were able to knock it out of the park.
00:03:06,060 --> 00:03:55,600 [Jennifer Madigan]
I love it, and that is such a big part of who you are. I mean, you've been coaching for a very long time, whether, you know, you realize it or not. I often talk about this moment, and I won't share what the blooper was, but one of the worst things I ever did, the worst mistakes I ever made as a producer in news so early in my career, and I so distinctly remember coming in the next day, first speaking to my boss, who was like, "Are you gonna do that again? No? Okay, good to go." And I walked out of the room, and I feel like you were right there, and you're like, "This is what you should have done." And I just remember being like, "Thank goodness," because I still didn't know until you said it what I should have done in that moment. But I so appreciated over the years your ability to understand how to react in, in situations, and as I said, like, how to shape stories, how to improve. It just seems to come very naturally to you, that, that coaching and mentorship piece.
00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,020 [Joanne Woo]
I appreciate that. Thank you. One of my favorite parts about the job.
00:03:59,020 --> 00:04:10,540 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. So someone asked me something recently, and it kinda, I don't know, it made me stop for a minute, so I gotta, I'm gonna pose this to you as well. But what's something, something about the newsroom that might surprise people who have never worked in a newsroom?
00:04:10,540 --> 00:04:29,580 [Joanne Woo]
I think maybe just how much doubt there is. You know, people will assume that there's a lot of certainty, um, but good newsrooms are full of second-guessing, debating. Are we sure? Is this the right topic? Is this the right lead? Have we asked these voices? And the type of newsroom that I've always been in is we were not afraid to challenge each other-
00:04:29,580 --> 00:04:29,590 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:04:29,590 --> 00:04:58,420 [Joanne Woo]
... ask the right questions, just to make sure that, you know, number one, we have our bases covered, but also just to make sure that, you know, it's not just one-sided. That when we build lineups, when we present shows, it's not just what I want. It is, how are we best serving our viewers? So, um, you know, the best moments are when you're in a lineup meeting and you have your anchor reporter, you know, number one, fighting for, you know, moving their stories up, but also, you know, questioning why we have s- the lineup a certain way. I think that's what makes the best newsrooms.
00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:07,420 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. I love that. We talk a lot about the changing media landscape, and I'm curious for you, first, how would you describe the state of news right now?
00:05:07,420 --> 00:05:20,460 [Joanne Woo]
It's faster than ever. It's highly competitive, only because so much information is that much more accessible, right? You're no longer just competing with other newsrooms, but you're competing with everything, you know, content creators-
00:05:20,460 --> 00:05:20,469 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:05:20,469 --> 00:05:29,280 [Joanne Woo]
... algorithm, group chats, Reddit threads, you name it, you know? So I think that's probably the biggest shift right now for, uh, newsrooms.
00:05:29,280 --> 00:06:09,220 [Jennifer Madigan]
I think about that a lot because I remember, and I always joke when I'm doing media training, that I s- I feel so old because it's like, "Back in my day in the newsroom," but I would get my story at around 10:00, and I would have until 5:30 to put that story together, and that didn't seem like enough time to research what the topic is, to figure out who are the right voices in the story, to go find the real people who are affected, to get out and talk to all of those people, to put myself in the story. But now we're seeing your reporters are doing online versions, radio hits, sometimes multiple stories. I mean, how, how hard is that in a day to, to fit everything in and, and deal with that pace you talked about?
00:06:09,220 --> 00:07:01,991 [Joanne Woo]
It's a really challenging time, right, to find all of those because, you know, your viewers, your audience, they want everything now.The approach that we've taken is we share the information that we have now, and then we continually update. And we've also- we've done some experimenting of allowing, you know, some reporters or multi-skilled journalists to kind of work at their own timeline, and it means as long as you have a piece for me that day, whether it's at 6:00 AM or 6:00 PM, you know, it's something that we're experimenting and, and things that we have to do just because everybody wants the information now. But I mean, fortunate for us, we have an incredibly strong digital team who get stories up as fast as they can, and but always accurate first, obviously. But they do a fantastic job in getting that information out, but we're always testing. We're evolving and trying new tools just to, you know, remain relevant, and also being able to serve your audience when they want that information.
00:07:01,992 --> 00:07:40,892 [Jennifer Madigan]
I also like to proudly point out that back in 2009 when I went to Afghanistan, but I like to say we because it was a team effort, I remember doing a morning show hit by Skype, and at the time, the other news team in the tent with me was like, "Did you just do a live hit by Skype?" Like, you know, when I worked with you and the team at the station there, it was always a bit ahead of things, and finding those different ways to do things. It was sort of the little newsroom that could also. Like, where does that come from that, uh, not settling with this is how it's done, but doing that experimentation that you were just talking about?
00:07:40,892 --> 00:08:16,612 [Joanne Woo]
You know what? I think it's just being curious, right? If you see new technology out there, it's testing, see how that helps us in the newsroom, whether or not we can get our stories out faster or maybe just making things look better. A lot of our teams right now, um, you know, we say they're multi-skilled journalists where they do everything, but you know, we have a few here that shoots their stories strictly on iPhone, and the turnaround is so much more quicker. They have the Dejero app, which allows you to go live from anywhere on their phones. So you know, I think just being curious and knowing what's out there and not being afraid to try new things.
00:08:17,012 --> 00:08:21,292 [Jennifer Madigan]
I have to say, I still can't quite get over that, when I used to have to carry around 40 pounds of gear.
00:08:21,292 --> 00:08:22,632 [Joanne Woo]
[laughs] Yeah.
00:08:22,632 --> 00:08:30,031 [Jennifer Madigan]
And I see them come with their iPhones, and it's just, it's wild to see, but I'm sure it does change the way they can cover stories.
00:08:30,032 --> 00:08:30,281 [Joanne Woo]
Absolutely.
00:08:30,281 --> 00:08:33,672 [Jennifer Madigan]
What's something that hasn't changed over the time that you've worked in the newsroom?
00:08:33,672 --> 00:08:55,452 [Joanne Woo]
Good stories. Good stories will always win, whether we post it on YouTube or radio or TikTok. It may have a different treatment, but I would say that good stories has not changed. Those will always win, I think, because if it's not compelling or relevant or that it's human-centric, um, it doesn't land. So I would say good stories has not changed.
00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,192 [Jennifer Madigan]
So let's, let's strip it all away. What makes a good story?
00:08:59,192 --> 00:09:29,412 [Joanne Woo]
Yeah, like, I mean, we've s- we've always said, you know, good sound, good characters, characters being that someone that can help guide you along in that story, h- that person that's affected by that. Uh, so you know, affects people, lives, money, health, safety. It reveals something new. It's unique. It, uh, holds people to account, emotional stories that connect. I would say that if you have a minimum of those two things, it's, it's a good story. If you have three or more, it's a great story.
00:09:29,412 --> 00:10:05,472 [Jennifer Madigan]
Another story I often tell people is that when I worked with you, it was so clear what the expectations were. All of those things that you just talked about, what makes a good story, that I remember handing you my script, and you would just say my name. You'd be like, "Jennifer," and I'd be like, "I know. I know. I'm missing this one piece." But it's, it's because you've always been really good at laying out those, those expectations of what do you need to have in a story before it's ready to go to air. So what do you think people misunderstand on the other side that are trying to get the news to cover a story? What do you think they misunderstand about how stories get chosen?
00:10:05,472 --> 00:10:28,052 [Joanne Woo]
Sometimes, you know, people will send you or pitch you a story idea that is just really generic, right? It's not specific. It, there's no focus. Sometimes there's, there's no urgency. I think that you have to know your, who you're pitching, number one. A lot of the times I'll get stories that are like, "Oh, this would be great for your Vancouver, you know, station."
00:10:28,052 --> 00:10:28,762 [Jennifer Madigan]
Oh, no. [laughs]
00:10:28,762 --> 00:10:51,152 [Joanne Woo]
I'm in Ottawa, you know? So you know, there are things like that. I think it's just... But again, yeah, like, when pitches don't land, it's because they're not thinking about the audience that that network or that, that local station serves, and it doesn't hit all those marks, right? It doesn't have impact or there's no urgency, or you don't have emotion with that story, then that's probably not gonna connect.
00:10:51,152 --> 00:10:53,722 [Jennifer Madigan]
I'm sure you get inundated with pitches every day.
00:10:53,722 --> 00:10:53,822 [Joanne Woo]
Uh-huh.
00:10:53,822 --> 00:11:05,252 [Jennifer Madigan]
When you see something, what makes you pay attention? If you think about the ones that you, you actually like, I'm sure you don't have a chance to read all the way through every pitch that goes in, so what is it that makes you go, "Ooh, I'm gonna give that a bit of my time"?
00:11:05,252 --> 00:11:13,052 [Joanne Woo]
I will try to glance at almost all of the emails that come in through my inbox 'cause one of the things that I hate is missing something.
00:11:13,052 --> 00:11:13,132 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:11:13,132 --> 00:11:53,672 [Joanne Woo]
But I would certainly say that if something that is, like, what matters now. You know, obviously, you know, if someone were to talk about, you know, like flooding, for example, if there's anything to do with flooding, uh, that's something that I'm gonna stop and pause and, and take a look at. Like I said, specifics. You know, who, what, when, where, why, not just, like, vague themes that people often will have, or you know, you know that it is also maybe, you know, a mass distribution type email. But you know, for us in particular, local relevance is probably one of the key things. I wanna make sure that, you know, the things that we're covering are uber local, or at least if it's a national or international story, there is a local connection to that.
00:11:53,672 --> 00:11:58,292 [Jennifer Madigan]
So if you could fix one thing about how people pitch you [laughs], what would it be?
00:11:58,292 --> 00:12:04,342 [Joanne Woo]
That's a good question because, you know, there are times when I'm like, "Oh, just pick up the phone," but then I'm like, "Oh, why are you calling me?" [laughs]
00:12:04,342 --> 00:12:04,472 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs]
00:12:04,472 --> 00:12:09,572 [Joanne Woo]
I would say turn offs right away, get the name and the outlets right.
00:12:09,572 --> 00:12:09,832 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:12:09,832 --> 00:12:51,044 [Joanne Woo]
That is the biggest turnoff, and long emails with no point. But I would say emails, and again, like you said, we, we get tons of pitches all the time, so if we don't respond right away the first time, it's okay to send it again and just say, "Hey, touching base." So I would say that's probably for me, like-Something that is a catchy headline that helps, but also not too cheesy. You know? Like let, and just get to the point, right? Don't give me a long essay of all of these things, but get to the point so I know exactly what the focus of that pitch is. Who are my voices? And also have those voices available. So if you're sending out a pitch, make sure that those voices are available that day.
00:12:51,044 --> 00:12:51,204 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:12:51,204 --> 00:13:07,184 [Joanne Woo]
Not next week, not any of that stuff. And, you know, like if there's visuals that go with it also, you know, like feel free to include those kind of things 'cause I think especially now when there's fewer resources in all the newsrooms, you know, like knowing what your visuals will be, it also helps.
00:13:07,184 --> 00:13:23,224 [Jennifer Madigan]
You have a lot of things that you have to cover in a day. Sometimes I'll, I'll go to the website and see maybe there's been a fire, there was a major accident, something's happening at City Hall, there's something going on with OC Transpo. Like there are a lot of things that you sort of have to f- to cover in a day.
00:13:23,224 --> 00:13:23,704 [Joanne Woo]
Yep.
00:13:23,704 --> 00:13:35,144 [Jennifer Madigan]
But what about the good news stories? Like how do you choose those? How do you make time? I know you do have those, those in the newscast, but is it harder to fit those in sometimes? Or, or how do you make space for those?
00:13:35,144 --> 00:14:12,664 [Joanne Woo]
I would say no, not harder. I think that more and more people are looking for those good news stories. So I would say pitch newsrooms. Like for me, I- I'm always looking for a good news stories because I think the news is pretty heavy these days. I think for some, I think that's a bit of a turnoff for them. Um, so having those good news and, and, uh, we actually have a segment called Three Good Things on Thursdays. So, you know, like I, I think it's important to have those stories and, um, what stands out is again, you know, is there an emotional connection? But like most important, and I probably should have said that when you asked about, you know, why pitches fail, it's why do we care? Like-
00:14:12,664 --> 00:14:12,904 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:14:12,904 --> 00:14:17,224 [Joanne Woo]
... when people are sending out pitches, you need to ask, "Why would people care about this?"
00:14:17,224 --> 00:14:18,434 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:18,434 --> 00:14:19,144 [Joanne Woo]
Mm-hmm.
00:14:19,144 --> 00:14:28,264 [Jennifer Madigan]
So as you know, you and your team are really shaping news and where it's going to go. So when you look into the future, how do you think news will continue to evolve?
00:14:28,264 --> 00:15:11,324 [Joanne Woo]
I think it'll be more platform specific. You know, will we be continually sharing stories on traditional media? Who knows? I think that it, it is continuing to evolve. I also see that, you know, journalists are becoming more brands themselves just alongside their outlets. It's not just about, you know, CTV News, but it's also, you know, the, who the journalist is. And again, I talked about it really briefly about just packaging the stories differently depending on platform. I think that's, that's kind of where it's going. Do I believe that, that there still will be local news in 10 years? I think so. It just means on a different platform. I think that people still wanna understand what's happening, what it means for them, and they need credible resources to go to.
00:15:11,324 --> 00:15:30,314 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. I remember, you know, you'd have ratings periods where different news outlets would be, you know, focusing on, on what they're doing and their brand and, and trying to get news consumers to choose one option over another. But do you find now you're even having to convince people to watch news?
00:15:30,314 --> 00:15:39,053 [Joanne Woo]
Again, I don't think you have to convince people to watch news. It's making sure that you are serving your audience at the platforms in which they consume their news.
00:15:39,053 --> 00:15:39,083 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:15:39,084 --> 00:15:52,264 [Joanne Woo]
Whether that at YouTube, whether that is just online, whether it's on an app, like I think that things are shifting so quickly that you just have to be accessible. Just recently, you know, our six o'clock newscast is now on the, available on the Crave app, you know? So-
00:15:52,264 --> 00:15:52,514 [Jennifer Madigan]
Hmm
00:15:52,514 --> 00:16:07,044 [Joanne Woo]
... a lot of people are maybe no longer going to traditional TV and they're downloading the Crave app. Our news is now accessible there as well. So I think you just have to be where your, your viewers are and your audience is consuming news.
00:16:07,044 --> 00:16:15,404 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. Well, I think it's really important the work that you're doing, and I, I wanna thank you so much for the time today 'cause I know your days are busy, but thank you so much for joining us.
00:16:15,404 --> 00:16:19,144 [Joanne Woo]
No, thank you for including me. Appreciate it. [upbeat music]
00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:31,844 [Jennifer Madigan]
That's it for today's episode of Message Received. If you enjoyed listening, follow or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can find more from Syntax Strategic on LinkedIn and at syntaxstrategic.ca. I'm Jennifer Madigan.