In this episode of Message Received, host Jennifer Madigan speaks with Meggan Van Harten, Co-CEO of Design de Plume, about what it really takes to communicate with intention, care, and respect. They explore the difference between performative inclusion and meaningful relationship-building, why inclusive communication isn’t a checklist or a script, and how language, assumptions, and speed can unintentionally cause harm. Drawing on the Indigenous Communications Toolkit, the conversation highlights the importance of slowing down, reflecting, and putting trust and relationships before output.
To learn more about the Indigenous Communications Toolkit — a resource designed to help teams communicate with clarity, care, and cultural respect — you can explore it here: https://deplume.ca/indigenoustoolkit
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Hello and welcome to
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Message Received, a podcast by Syntax. I’m Jennifer Madigan.
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On this show we talk about how messages actually land, how strategy, storytelling and audience
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insight comes together, and why some ideas cut through while others don’t.
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Each episode, I’ll sit down with people who shape narratives for a living.
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Leaders, builders and communicators who understand
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what you say and how you say it really matters.
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Let’s get into it.
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Joining me today is Megan van Harten, co-CEO of Design to Plume Design. De plume is an indigenous and women owned creative agency, and we've been working together through a partnership that I really value. They've worked with some of the biggest brands in Canada and recently produced a new resource, the Indigenous Communications Toolkit.
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Megan, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me, Jenny. So for listeners who don't know design de plume yet, how do you describe the work that you do and the lens that you bring to communications and design? So design de plume. We're an indigenous and women own creative agency, and we focus on inclusive and accessible design solutions.
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And really at our core is our ideas lenses, which get deployed throughout every project that we do. And so Ideas stands for indigeneity, inclusivity, diversity, equity, accessibility and sustainability. And my business partner Jennifer Tabak talks about it as this like beautiful like kaleidoscope right where you're taking in all these different perspectives and weaving them together to create like really meaningful, connecting communication pieces.
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So we do everything from, branding strategy, campaigns, design systems, websites and more. We've even helped people develop carpet lines and tables. So really, we're just we're just big problem solvers, right? Like, that's what we want to be. And that's why we were like, hey, we see this big problem in our industry, a lack of resources for people to rely on when they want to just do better.
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So that's why we invested some efforts into developing our own resource, the Indigenous Communications Toolkit. So excited to chat with you about that. Yeah, and I want to get there in a minute, but I first want to talk about some of the projects that you guys have worked with that you are proudest of, because there have been some really big brands that you've worked with.
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Yeah, and, it's always such like a beautiful process behind every single project that we do. And, so recently we launched the indigenous celebrations games for, the Toronto Maple Leafs. This is our second year collaborating with them and Mastercard. So on the rink, they had a beautiful light show, really elevating and amplifying the the drum drummers and the singers of the event, as well as, like, a beautiful, like, flag that was, carried by thousands of people across an arena.
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And it's such an interesting project because it's got such great visibility and people are so engaged about it. Right? Bringing in a whole, NHL team behind celebrating indigenous peoples. What a wonderful, project. But in terms of, like, scale and scope, like, that's actually like a pretty small project of what we've done in the past, where we've built, like, conservation effort websites where they have to work in low bandwidth environments because they have to work for, indigenous fish or people that are out on the land and, and doing those conservation efforts.
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So we're really proud of every, every project that we get a chance to work with. But, you know, like being able to collaborate with, the Toronto Maple Leafs, MLSE, Mastercard and some of our other partners like, TD, RBC, CBC, we worked on the National Indigenous Peoples Days, and on the, Paris Olympics. So, yeah, a wide variety.
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And if I had to pick one to be the most proud of, I think I would pick Johns Hopkins University, for the Center of indigenous health, because we really help them, to grow from these, very, US based and focus on indigenous health to a more global indigenous health, center, which is great for everyone.
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And really amplifying the research that's being done there and how to make it connect to all of these indigenous communities, not only in the US and across Turtle Island, so inclusive of Canada, or as it's called now, Canada. But Australia, New Zealand, like bringing everybody together and there's such a kinship there. So it's a, it's a very, very special project.
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Yeah, it sounds amazing. And I can only imagine that moment with the Maple Leafs. Very, very cool. We're very proud to see all of the incredible things that you're doing. Now let's dig into this communications toolkit. So how did you build this toolkit for like who do you hope uses it and how? So our intention with the toolkit was to create a resource that would be really good for communications teams.
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And so that's everybody from like designers, marketers, and and more in that space, like social media experts, content developers. But what we've noticed with the toolkit, because we took this approach of really amplifying indigenous knowledge and and making it super approachable, and also talking about some of the systems. And guess which we're going to talk about today.
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And sort of these like I'm going to say like kind of perpetuating problems that exist within communications. It's actually, amplified this into a tool that's really good for a lot of people. And I know you and I probably both hate this, like, it's for everybody. Right? How much should as you hear that as a marketer like.
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Yeah, Alex. For everybody. But when we're talking about communications, everyone has a responsibility in the way that they communicate. And so everybody has a responsibility to understand what these words mean. How can you be part of changing that and why you should. Yeah. So we've even had a lot of people adopt this into like an onboarding tool, something that they could use for training.
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And getting people ready to go into a space with, with other indigenous people or even to be welcomed into their space and, alleviating some of that advocacy tax of some of the diverse people that might already exist on that team. I love it because you even have like, exercises in the toolkit where people can put the learning to the test, right?
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It's not just something that people read and then maybe forget about, you're actually getting them to work on things. And I love that. At the beginning, you talk about like, this is for the people who who want to do the right thing but are worried about doing the wrong thing essentially, right. And you make a distinction that this is not a checklist.
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This is not a script. Why is why is it important to point that out? It's really important to focus on how do you make the most impact and how do you how do you build the best connections. Right. And none of us are checkboxes. We don't fit within that system. And certainly when we're talking about indigenous communities and when we're talking about First Nation Inuit communities, each one is so unique.
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Language can vary from nation to nation, like 50km away. So if we're not talking about people who are likes end to end, it could be like neighbors, sisters, brothers, right? It's for other communities and sister communities. And what might work for one might not work for the next. And so this idea of, like, this approach that we see often come up is like this, a this pan indigenous city.
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Right? But there's some there's some like one answer for everybody, but in truthfulness, everybody is so unique. You have to build really, truly like good understanding, good listening. Come in with a good open heart, right? Be an empty cup in those environments and let yourself, reflect, which is what you were just talking about, some of those reflection materials, which is why it makes it a really applicable tool for, for so many different people.
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Right. And we can't say that we've ever really had in our system, a good space or a safe space to do that. Reflection. Like if you think back to you know, like I, I know it's been like 16 years for me now, but, you know, when I think back to my college days or even high school, this the conversations we were having around indigenous topics were basically not right.
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Yeah. And, when we're talking about. But like, in marketing, for instance, like you're talking about like, oh, we have to make this really specific for this community. But that approach is so often the same. That's like, right, same kind of like approach every single time. And we're not taking that that time to be really good listeners and think like, what do we need to do differently here?
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You know, like, how can I approach in a different way? How can I be more inclusive? And so, like having those reflections and doing them, earlier in your process obviously will have a better result. Because I do think that that there's so many communities that would benefit from a more intentional, approach. But we're missing that right now when it comes to, like, coming into it into the these like, communication careers.
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Yeah. And best intentions can can end up having the opposite effect. Right. I remember working with an organization and they said, you know, through a reconciliation, initiative, something was brought in and, and they did something and, and this group said like that, we don't do that in our, you know, culture. So it, it what it said at the very beginning of the meeting was, you don't know who we are.
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You've come in here to talk to us and you're you clearly have no clue who you're talking to. And so I also like that you really talk about slowing down and asking questions and, and building that relationship that you can't just like, this is what it is. And and off we go. There has to be a relationship there.
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Absolutely. Relationship over output. And it's one of the foundational principles of the book. So the book goes through several, principles, but that's a really big one. And moving at the speed of trust. Right. It's such a critical phase to every single, project or or or momentum that you want to bring in for change.
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You need to move at the speed of trust. And the only way to do that is by really examining your own biases, your own assumptions in that space and and making sure that you're coming in not only with the best of intentions, but that you're prepared. Right. I hear it all the time. I'm scared to make a mistake.
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But frozen is like that is. Yeah. That is a new problem. All of it on its own right. When people are frozen in fear then they lean on the side of like, let's copy somebody that we think has more knowledge than us, right. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And say why does everyone use this terminology. Well because you might see the government use this terminology.
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And so that's like a trusted source. So people will go we'll go there rather than you know they if it's we didn't make a mistake. We're using the terminology that we've seen here. Right. And why is that a why. Like why is it a. Oh the government says so. So it must be fine. Yeah. I mean, people are trying their best.
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I'm not going to say that they have about it. Yeah, well they are definitely trying their best, but they don't always get it right. And then what can happen is that you kind of create this system of like rinse and repeat and things. There's meaning over time. Think about land acknowledgment. The purpose of a land acknowledgment is very deep, right?
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Like we we should be saying our land acknowledgments with action behind them. What are you doing? It's not just enough to say, like, hey, thanks for letting me participate on Stolen Lands today, but what meaningful change are you? Are you doing in this? What connections you have to that community? Did you even name the right one? Yeah, yeah.
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You know, there's so much of this. I'm so scared to make a mistake, so I'll just copy someone else. And I don't think that that's always the right answer. And what? It can lead us down a pathway of, like, basically, like, filtering out the good. The good. Why we should be doing these things. Yeah. We need to understand our.
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Why. Yeah, I love that. The other thing I really love when working with your team is when they challenge us on specific word use, and it's stuff that you don't even think about. Target audience or stakeholder. Two things that we use in, in like almost daily work that we do and, and your team has pointed out will target.
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That's not the best word. Because it's it's almost violent. Right. It's it's got a, it's got a connotation to it. And they shift it to intended. And I thought, well that isn't that's just a better it does the same job but in a nice much nicer way. Right. And it just it's that moment of you know, think about that word that you're using.
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Stakeholder is another one. Can you walk us? Why walk us through why that term is problematic, right. So in the 17 and 1800s, when colonists were coming over to, as it's called now, Canada, they were literally driving wooden stakes into the ground. And so this form of staking land, is where the stakeholder came from.
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Right? And eventually that word became a new meaning, which is just like anybody who is, like, has an interest or, some responsibility in that project. And so it's really kind of stemmed into this, like everyday common usage term. But it's root and, and really it's meaning coming in and stealing land and like staking it and taking it away.
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I don't think that's what any stakeholder would actually really want to be doing. All right. And so we we suggest terms like, something like interest holder for instance. And so again like, like you said, using more clear language actually is more inclusive at the same time. Yeah. So it solves both purposes. And then we can also, move away from using terminology, that might cause harm in and in audiences and environments that, people are not even aware of.
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And again, this might not be true. For all communities like, when we shared the indigenous communications toolkit, we shared a few of like the phrases to to get people, excited about it and just, again, to get that perspective, like, is this helpful for people to know and like somebody from like Kenya was like, obviously, like, we don't use that term here.
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It doesn't mean that, and I'm like, well, yeah, we're talking about what happened in North America or Turtle Island, right? Yes. Okay. But again, when we're talking about where does that term come from? Like stakeholder is still rooted in that colonist term. So even though it might not be totally applicable like Kenya, the the origins of the words still apply.
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Yes. Yes, absolutely. If there is one principle that you wish communicators communicators would. I'm going to try that again. Sorry. If there was one principle you wish communicators would slow down and really sit with, what would it be? Give me a second. That's okay.
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Sorry. Well. Or we can just skip forward to the next question.
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You want to get it? I want to, like, answer this like, well, but I okay. I want to like, look at my like two second note there again. I'll ask the question again when you're ready. Yeah.
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Okay. Yeah. Okay. I already talked about lead with relationship, not output. Do you think it's. That's what I was wondering. You kind of already covered in snow. We just skip. That's what I was like. I think I might have messaged this and I didn't want to have, like, repeat myself. And that's because I. Yeah, I was that was me.
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Okay. Sorry. Well, I just jump to the next question instead. Yeah. So what does good use of this toolkit look like in the real world? How are people applying what they're going to learn if they get this toolkit? I think good use of this toolkit really comes from being in that space of openness. So being in that space, wanting to see something, a different trajectory, some change, and moving from that space of like, I feel frozen to, I'm going to say reflection.
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Right? like this book really, really enacts, like a lot of reflection. I'm going to give you some practical tools, like, don't do this, say this instead. Right. Use images like this. However, really like, we have a responsibility here. And the only way that people really can be autonomous and have that accountability and responsibility behind what they're saying is if they understand it.
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So, yeah, really you got to reflect. And then from that reflection is where you can move into that space of meaningful action, right. Where we can start to see the change actually transcend into our communications, into our materials, into, creatives, into the consultation phase. Right. So often, folks jump ahead and they think I'm going to solve this problem for this community, and we forget that we need to be good listeners and we need to think about, like, how do we make this sustainable, right?
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Like and to understand the sustainability aspect of it. And I don't mean just from an environmental lens, I mean from a people power lens. Yeah. We think about capacity, right. It's really, really important that we understand what's the long term capacity of this. Because again, like you said, journey, like so many people have such great intentions and but they're basing those intentions off of principles and understanding that do not include indigenous people.
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And so then it can come in and feel like a ton of friction. Right? Right. They're not gaining that trust. They're not spending that time listening. And that's really where we can like slow down, reflect, do all of that good work upfront. Make sure that in the consultation with others that fair work is fairly compensated and that we're involving indigenous businesses, indigenous peoples, into these projects really early to help us decide how the problem should be solved.
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We don't want to come in or like I'm going to say you all don't want to like we the royal, we we don't want to all come in and, take over. We want to come in and be good collaborators. And so how you do that is by doing really good listening upfront and being ready to be challenged, like you said, like will challenge you and hopefully you can be prepared in advance.
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So you're challenged maybe a little less than you do the challenging work yourself right through that reflection phase. But, you know, being open to that feedback from others and growing from it instead of resisting it and being like, I don't know. Well, people often want to come in and and demonstrate their expertise, right? And they come in and this is how it should be done.
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And, and it's it's a matter of like, we I have this expertise, but I need to ask a few questions to understand where where this organization or person or community is coming from and see how this applies. So taking that time to really stop and listen as you're saying and and hold back a minute, to ensure that everything that you want to bring in, all that expertise is actually applicable to the group that you're talking to.
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Totally. Just as you were mentioning this journey, it made me think of a moment that we had, for our National Truth and Reconciliation Day. We had an elder from our community come in, elder Jim and, talked to the team. And when we were introducing ourselves, he was like, I don't want to know your job title.
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I don't want to know what project working on. I want to know your spirit. Like, who are you? Oh, interesting. You know, and I thought that was such a great way to think about, like, okay, we're in a business environment. Business suits and like, you know, ready to do business. How? It's like, that's not all of who you are, right.
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And so it was like a wonderful lesson from an elder that we're so much more than that expertise that you mentioned. Right. Well how do we connect. Yeah. And this is a different way of doing it. And it's and it's not right or wrong. It's the best, it's the best way in that environment. And it's how we can make better inclusive connections with one another.
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And I'm all for it. So how do you see this toolkit supporting longer term change, not just better language? Okay, let me see. I need to clear my throat. Yeah, because I already talked about the frozen. This thing. I don't want to do that again. Did I mention that organizations have been adopting it into training and onboarding?
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Did I say they did? Okay, I did say that. Okay, let's skip that. Okay. Let me do my ask again. No, let me think. Let me think. Maybe it's just about shifting mindsets. Like, if anything, if you can just shift people's. Yeah. Even taking that. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I got it. Yeah. Okay. So how do you see this toolkit supporting longer term change, not just better language?
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Yeah. I think being able to bring into, into your own practices that mindset shift. Right. Thinking about consultation earlier, thinking about and reflecting upon what are your biases? You might have been even taught in school or taught in your practices as a professional, that this is the way that you do this. Does it always have to be that way?
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Why? What if what if it was different? There's lots of different ways to solve a problem, and thinking about this in a new perspective, from an indigenous perspective, can help make your work more inclusive, more respectful, and create deeper connections. And ultimately, progress happens one intentional step at a time. We need to take the time to really be thoughtful in our actions and thoughtful in what we produce.
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And not just focus on the results, but how that what that journey look like for everybody involved, too. And everybody has a responsibility when it comes to reconciliation. Now we have moments like National Truth and Reconciliation Day. We have, the TRC, we have a lot of initiatives that have been started by other people to bring in that awareness.
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But every single person has a responsibility in how they behave towards others and how they create more inclusive environments, not only for like a one on one engagement, but how they do that from a campaign standpoint. How are you making, your campaigns more inclusive? Because at the end of the day, like, it's not about exclusions, right? We want to make deeper connections with others.
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We want to be, creating these authentic, experiences and bringing more people into these, into these spaces. So, everyone carries a weight and responsibility in those and in their actions. And the goal with the toolkit is to help alleviate some of that weight. Right? Yeah. It can feel so like people can feel so stuck because there is like a genuine desire, but they might lack personal connections to communities.
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This is one small way that you can start making those good steps towards that good progress. Yeah, I think it's great. I'll be honest. I would recommend everyone they can find the link to their toolkit in the show notes. Print it because it's going to be something you're going to want to go back to again and again.
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I was just looking at it again today for some work that we're doing. So thank you guys for putting this together. And thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you.
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