In this episode of Message Received, host Jennifer Madigan speaks with Meggan Van Harten, Co-CEO of Design de Plume, about why accessibility belongs at the foundation of design and communications rather than tacked on at the end. They explore how good design is accessible by definition, why "the way we've always done it" is really a decision about who gets left out, and how catching accessibility gaps early saves organizations from far greater costs down the line. Van Harten also shares how building accessibility into brand guides and templates from the first decision sets teams up to reach everyone their work is meant for.
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:28,680 [Jennifer Madigan]
[instrumental music] Hello, and welcome to Message Received, a podcast by Syntax. I'm Jennifer Madigan. On this show, we talk about how messages actually land, how strategy, storytelling, and audience insights come together, and why some ideas cut through while others don't. Each episode, I'll sit down with people who shape narratives for a living, leaders, builders, and communicators who understand what you say and how you say it really matters. Let's get into it.
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:53,880 [Jennifer Madigan]
Joining me today is Megan Van Harten, co-CEO of Design de Plume. Design de Plume is an indigenous and women-owned creative agency that works with organizations to design communications that are inclusive, accessible, and grounded in respect. Today, Megan and I are gonna talk about accessibility in design and communications and why it needs to be treated as foundational, not optional. Megan, thank you so much for joining me again.
00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,420 [Meggan Van Harten]
Thanks for having me, Jenny.
00:00:55,420 --> 00:01:05,440 [Jennifer Madigan]
Most people in communications or design know that accessibility is a requirement. What are the biggest mistakes you're seeing people make when it comes to s- trying to satisfy those requirements?
00:01:05,440 --> 00:02:18,820 [Meggan Van Harten]
I think that when people are trying to satisfy the requirements and, and follow compliance, they kinda miss the point altogether, which is that accessibility needs to be good for people. Uh, compliance, it has, it has a space, uh, here. It is the ground floor, not the ceiling, though, right? It's, it's meant to be something that unites us in having some standards in what we say is accessible, isn't accessible. But the people [laughs] really get to be the experts on what is accessible and what is not. One of the biggest pitfalls that I see with accessibility is that it's often treated as, like, "Oh, yeah, we have to make this accessible." And it's a principle that gets applied at the end instead of at the beginning of a project, or even in the consultation or in content development stages, right? And so then what ends up happening is this process where a mistake in the, let's say, in the content phase or in the, in the early design phases gets all the way to that output and that final result, uh, and then it needs to be remediated. And that's, like, the most costly process. Like, you don't want to wait to the end to address these accessibility design principles. You wanna be applying them as early as possible and integrating them throughout the entire process.
00:02:18,820 --> 00:02:31,680 [Jennifer Madigan]
I think you think about accessibility in a different way than most. I mean, this, you're an expert in this. This is what you do every day. But how do you define accessibility? 'Cause I, I think it's really interesting, um, and it might shift the way others think.
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:51,660 [Meggan Van Harten]
I have a different perspective around accessibility because I have ADHD, so I am a neurodivergent person. Uh, I was also diagnosed with ADHD much later in my life, so I understand what that [laughs] struggle is like to not have things made for you and to exist in environments definitely not created for you or inclusive-
00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:51,740 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:02:51,740 --> 00:03:38,120 [Meggan Van Harten]
... of your abilities. And almost being, like, told throughout every single one of those processes, like, "Do better, try harder, take better notes, you know, do more, pay attention more," which is, like, none of those things are actually my issue or my fault. And so when we're talking about accessibility, having that different perspective of, like, going through that myself, my parents both have disabilities, and so it's something that I was like... I, I just saw from my entire life. And that's why I have such a passion behind it now, is making sure that I can be a good, a good participant in making things more accessible for others, but also how do I, like, teach other people? How do I, how do I transform their knowledge and, and, and make it more applicable to them too? 'Cause one of the reasons-
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:38,150 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:03:38,150 --> 00:03:42,580 [Meggan Van Harten]
... why people don't do this is because it feels, like, unobtainable, right?
00:03:42,580 --> 00:03:42,760 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:03:42,760 --> 00:04:29,909 [Meggan Van Harten]
Or they lean on the fact that, like, "Oh, we can just make an alternative version of this." And I've heard that too, right? But then, like, why would you make a secondary experience a less good experience, right? Oftentimes, these accessible, like, alternatives are, you know, text on a page or, like, a Word document, and it's, like, devoid of all of its, like, substance and, like, the, the visuals or, like, some of the, uh, descriptions, right, that might exist in, uh, a version of that same, uh, materials that would be produced that has accessibility in mind from the start. Um, so it doesn't really become an alternative or an equivalent. It's not. It becomes this, like, lesser product overall, which, again, takes away from the experience of making communications for people, which that's what we do, right? [laughs] Like, we're not making-
00:04:29,909 --> 00:04:30,620 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:30,620 --> 00:04:37,159 [Meggan Van Harten]
We're not out here making communications for dogs or, like, aliens. Uh, not yet anyways. [laughs] So-
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:47,920 [Jennifer Madigan]
But I think people forget that element of it's, accessibility is so that everyone experiences these communications in the same way. I feel like that, that gets missed often.
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:54,110 [Meggan Van Harten]
Or even, maybe not even in the same way, but it's robust enough that everybody can experience it.
00:04:54,110 --> 00:04:54,800 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:04:54,800 --> 00:05:01,320 [Meggan Van Harten]
Right? Um, so somebody who has, like, low vision, for instance, like, their experience should be different because their-
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:01,550 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right, yeah
00:05:01,550 --> 00:05:03,320 [Meggan Van Harten]
... abilities are different.
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:03,469 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:05:03,469 --> 00:05:12,380 [Meggan Van Harten]
Um, but that doesn't mean that they can't have, uh, an equivalent experience, like, something... Or not equivalent. Um, what's that? Equitable experience.
00:05:12,380 --> 00:05:12,600 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes.
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:13,270 [Meggan Van Harten]
You know what I mean?
00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:13,280 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:14,100 [Meggan Van Harten]
Like, where-
00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:14,290 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:17,800 [Meggan Van Harten]
... it's, it's, it's not necessarily equal to, it's equitable. So it-
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:17,850 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:20,900 [Meggan Van Harten]
... has to change and be robust enough to fit that person.
00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:30,040 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, that makes sense. So let's get a bit technical. What are some of the common ways that you're seeing organizations unintentionally design people out of their communications?
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:46,630 [Meggan Van Harten]
One way that I see, which is, like, very unfortunate, which is that, like, basically they get all the way to the end and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I have to make this accessible." And so one of the things that they end up doing instead of going through a remediation cycle, like, re- remediation cycles are effective. That will work.
00:05:46,630 --> 00:05:46,680 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:05:46,680 --> 00:06:10,694 [Meggan Van Harten]
It might not create an equivalent experience or an equitable experience, but it will make it so that it is accessible. However, in a lot of cases, because there's a lack of knowledge about accessibility, what it should look like, how it should behave, uh, people rely on technology to service that gap. And so they start integrating things like AI and using AI alt text j- image generators, for instance.
00:06:10,694 --> 00:06:10,744 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:06:10,744 --> 00:06:11,044 [Meggan Van Harten]
And-
00:06:11,044 --> 00:06:11,704 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:06:11,704 --> 00:06:31,494 [Meggan Van Harten]
... those can be highly problematic. For those that are, are, are listening, I'm using my 2 hands and making a heart with my hands. So if I was to take a picture right now and, and put this inside, like, an alt text ge- image generator, right, and say, like, you know, "Make alt text around this picture," it'll probably say something like,
00:06:32,654 --> 00:06:35,984 [Meggan Van Harten]
"Person with hands o- on a podcast," or something like that, right?
00:06:35,984 --> 00:06:36,404 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right, right, right. Yeah.
00:06:36,404 --> 00:06:48,014 [Meggan Van Harten]
Like, with, with my headset, maybe they'll focus on that. But what, like, we as humans, we know that my 2 hands together like this, this is making a heart shape. Like, I'm sending out good vibes here, right? I'm sending the message of-
00:06:48,014 --> 00:06:48,644 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes, exactly
00:06:48,644 --> 00:06:58,284 [Meggan Van Harten]
... like, love, not, uh, it's not just my hands or my headset or the pa- fact that I'm a person is the important part of that image, right? So it doesn't-
00:06:58,284 --> 00:06:58,294 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:06:58,294 --> 00:07:01,264 [Meggan Van Harten]
... understand the nuances of people, uh-
00:07:01,264 --> 00:07:01,274 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:07:01,274 --> 00:07:06,604 [Meggan Van Harten]
... and what we would need to really fully understand what's happening in that image or why it's important-
00:07:06,604 --> 00:07:06,614 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes
00:07:06,614 --> 00:07:15,304 [Meggan Van Harten]
... or why you've included it. And then what can also happen there, Jenny, is, like, people using tools to automatically do this.
00:07:15,304 --> 00:07:15,374 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes. Mm-hmm.
00:07:15,374 --> 00:07:21,074 [Meggan Van Harten]
So it might not be AI, but automatic, automatic tools, so it'll apply, like, almost like an overlay. And I see that a lot-
00:07:21,074 --> 00:07:21,074 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:07:21,074 --> 00:07:22,224 [Meggan Van Harten]
... with websites-
00:07:22,224 --> 00:07:22,624 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:07:22,624 --> 00:07:59,064 [Meggan Van Harten]
... uh, which can be, again, very highly problematic because it's not... When somebody goes to a website, for instance, and, like, let's say, uh, for me, I'm wearing glasses, so, uh, maybe I need to have my text size a little bit bigger. So in order for you to make your website more accessible for somebody like me who might need, like, bigger text, all it needs to do is be robust enough that, that, that font size can get bigger. But when we go to use, like, an overlay tool, for instance, it might change, like, the, not only the text size, but it might become unreadable, or it could be, like, change the contrast so that it's not even visible anymore, right?
00:07:59,064 --> 00:07:59,184 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:07:59,184 --> 00:08:15,414 [Meggan Van Harten]
Like, it'll up the vibrancy, but not necessarily the contrast, and totally deplete your message along the way. And because people are less familiar with it and they're trusting that these tools are going to solve this problem for them, then we end up in a scenario where we're excluding people because-
00:08:15,414 --> 00:08:15,624 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:08:15,624 --> 00:08:26,804 [Meggan Van Harten]
... it's not actually meeting their needs. It's never been, like, really properly tested with their own audience environments, uh, and it just leads to this misguided trust in that-
00:08:26,804 --> 00:08:26,884 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:08:26,884 --> 00:08:29,344 [Meggan Van Harten]
... technology to service these gaps for us.
00:08:29,344 --> 00:09:45,104 [Jennifer Madigan]
And back to that, you know, checklist. Like, okay, this, this accessibility thing is done. Uh, you came and talked to our team and, and one of my favorite moments, and I know I've talked to you th- about this before, is when you wr- you brought up an image and you asked the team how would they write the alt text. And everyone gave, "Oh, it's a family on a couch in a room with a dog." Right? Very basic. And it might be something that I, I... You're right. I've seen these AI-generated captions pop up. And then you were like, "But this is for a paint company." Right? And now, now how does that change the way that you would write the alt text? Well, now this is for, I don't know, family th- Like, depending on what you're talking about, the way you might describe the image is different. And similarly, when we talked about charts and graphs, right? Like, it's not enough just to be like, "This is, this is the chart." It's like, right, but the chart is showing something, right? It's trying to communicate something. And I just, it's, it clearly, like, stuck with me because it was that idea of none of us... I didn't ask you the question of, "Where is this image going?" I just said, "Oh, I can, I can describe that image. This is what it is." Um, and it really stuck with me to really think more about not just what is it, but what are you trying to say and how can you actually capture that in your alt text so that if someone is looking at it, they're getting that experience as well.
00:09:45,104 --> 00:09:48,944 [Meggan Van Harten]
Absolutely. Right? Making sure that intention is clear because it does-
00:09:48,944 --> 00:09:49,054 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:09:49,054 --> 00:10:29,943 [Meggan Van Harten]
... change depending on where that photo is or what campaign it's a part of, how it's being distributed. All of those things matter, and that should be, um, part of your alt text description. It also matters things about, like, uh, when we're talking about inclusivity and image representation, like, uh, we might talk about body shape or sizes, skin color, hair color, all of those things. And it, and it creates a picture of, like, also, like, this is a welcoming space because we're, we're talking about all these different people that are involved, right? It's another way to show that layer of diversity. It's so funny to me 'cause, like, people really struggle with this concept 'cause they're like, "Well, I can't do that." And I'm like, "But why'd you pick-
00:10:29,944 --> 00:10:30,214 [Jennifer Madigan]
Totally
00:10:30,214 --> 00:10:33,194 [Meggan Van Harten]
... this picture?" Right? Like, of course you can. [laughs] Right?
00:10:33,194 --> 00:10:33,304 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:10:33,304 --> 00:10:38,804 [Meggan Van Harten]
And, and I hear it all the time from designers. They're like, "Oh, I'm not a content writer." And I'm like-
00:10:38,804 --> 00:10:39,024 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:10:39,024 --> 00:10:45,563 [Meggan Van Harten]
... "You are a sighted person. That makes you uniquely qualified to be able to describe this picture." [laughs]
00:10:45,564 --> 00:10:49,734 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. Yeah. It's true, though. My 1st thought was like, "Ooh, could I do that?" [laughs]
00:10:49,734 --> 00:10:51,064 [Meggan Van Harten]
Yeah. You can, right? Like-
00:10:51,064 --> 00:10:51,704 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, yeah. I get it.
00:10:51,704 --> 00:10:56,383 [Meggan Van Harten]
And I think it's like when you think about that intention 1st and you deploy that into your practice-
00:10:56,384 --> 00:10:56,444 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:10:56,444 --> 00:11:00,924 [Meggan Van Harten]
... and you're like, "Okay, yeah." Because some pi- pictures are just for decorative and then you don't need to-
00:11:00,924 --> 00:11:01,014 [Jennifer Madigan]
Sure
00:11:01,014 --> 00:11:02,004 [Meggan Van Harten]
... you know, you, you can-
00:11:02,004 --> 00:11:02,014 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:11:02,014 --> 00:11:04,084 [Meggan Van Harten]
... just, like, omit them, right? And that's fine.
00:11:04,084 --> 00:11:04,564 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:11:04,564 --> 00:11:12,824 [Meggan Van Harten]
Um, but other ones really do tell a story. And I think that we, we do spend a lot of time thinking about our images and we think about, like-
00:11:12,824 --> 00:11:13,194 [Jennifer Madigan]
Oh my gosh, yeah
00:11:13,194 --> 00:11:18,744 [Meggan Van Harten]
... who, who's in them? Like, how are we representing people? I wanna represent them really well. And that's-
00:11:18,744 --> 00:11:18,774 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:11:18,774 --> 00:11:20,724 [Meggan Van Harten]
... one way to do it, right, is make sure that it's in-
00:11:20,724 --> 00:11:20,794 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:11:20,794 --> 00:11:23,724 [Meggan Van Harten]
... your alt text and make sure it's part of your descriptions.
00:11:23,724 --> 00:11:23,824 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:11:23,824 --> 00:11:30,394 [Meggan Van Harten]
I'm really glad you brought up charts because it reminded me... We're gonna side quest, ADHD side quest for a second. But it re- [laughs]
00:11:30,394 --> 00:11:31,144 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs] Okay.
00:11:31,144 --> 00:11:58,744 [Meggan Van Harten]
It reminded me of a project, uh, from a really long time ago. And, um, we were talking about how do we make this report really accessible. And one of the, uh, one of our clients was like, "Oh my gosh, we've done this before, but it creates, like, a really horrible experience." And I was like, "Oh my gosh. Tell me more. Why?" And they were like, "Well, every single data point on the chart had to be outlined in the, in the description below the chart." And so they were like-
00:11:58,744 --> 00:11:58,774 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:11:58,774 --> 00:12:12,232 [Meggan Van Harten]
... it added something like, I don't know, like 20 or 30 pages 'cause they had a lot of charts. And we were like, "Okay. Well, I could see how that that would, like, be a negative experience," right? But when we're talking about the charts, can we explain the purpose of the chart, right?
00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:12,722 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:12:12,722 --> 00:12:38,292 [Meggan Van Harten]
Like, what is the data saying? We can always incl- include, like, a much simpler accompaniment or, like, appendix or something that goes through every single data point if somebody is like, "I need to look at all of the little data points." Fine, sure. We'll give it to you. But in order to, like, give that, you know, proper, equitable experience of I'm a sighted person and I'm looking at this chart and I can see which bar graphs are high and which ones are low-
00:12:38,292 --> 00:12:39,232 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right. Yeah
00:12:39,232 --> 00:12:41,412 [Meggan Van Harten]
... why can't we just describe that, right?
00:12:41,412 --> 00:12:41,812 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:12:41,812 --> 00:12:49,362 [Meggan Van Harten]
And just add that as a description instead of being like, "Data point A, data point B," like, which would be, uh, an, uh, an atrocious-
00:12:49,362 --> 00:12:49,482 [Jennifer Madigan]
Oh my gosh, yeah
00:12:49,482 --> 00:12:50,072 [Meggan Van Harten]
... experience-
00:12:50,072 --> 00:12:50,372 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes
00:12:50,372 --> 00:12:52,172 [Meggan Van Harten]
... for anybody to, like, sit there and listen to.
00:12:52,172 --> 00:12:52,192 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes.
00:12:52,192 --> 00:12:55,622 [Meggan Van Harten]
Unless you're a data nerd, which I'm not judging you, um [laughs]-
00:12:55,622 --> 00:12:55,622 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:12:55,622 --> 00:12:56,032 [Meggan Van Harten]
... then I'd rather-
00:12:56,032 --> 00:12:58,532 [Jennifer Madigan]
But even the thought of putting it together, right?
00:12:58,532 --> 00:12:58,992 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:12:58,992 --> 00:13:00,862 [Jennifer Madigan]
The amount of work. Yeah. For sure.
00:13:00,862 --> 00:13:09,051 [Meggan Van Harten]
Yes. And, like, uh, you know, not making, like, an accessible alternative that would just be so data intense-
00:13:09,052 --> 00:13:09,232 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:13:09,232 --> 00:13:12,032 [Meggan Van Harten]
... that actually would make it inaccessible again, right?
00:13:12,032 --> 00:13:12,112 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:13:12,112 --> 00:13:19,082 [Meggan Van Harten]
And this is wh- again, like, this is a really good example of, like, okay, I'm sure what they did was technically compliant the 1st time.
00:13:19,082 --> 00:13:19,112 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:13:19,112 --> 00:13:21,522 [Meggan Van Harten]
That is a technically compliant thing to do, right?
00:13:21,522 --> 00:13:22,182 [Jennifer Madigan]
Absolutely.
00:13:22,182 --> 00:13:30,122 [Meggan Van Harten]
Like, you- you've outlined all of the, the visual data that exists in that chart. Great. But it makes a really terrible experience.
00:13:30,122 --> 00:13:30,232 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:13:30,232 --> 00:13:38,572 [Meggan Van Harten]
And so we have to think about, like, what is this... what is a truly accessible experience? It means making it really good for people [laughs]-
00:13:38,572 --> 00:13:38,882 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:13:38,882 --> 00:13:39,802 [Meggan Van Harten]
... at the end of the day.
00:13:39,802 --> 00:13:39,852 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yes.
00:13:39,852 --> 00:13:41,752 [Meggan Van Harten]
And we can't miss that fact.
00:13:41,752 --> 00:13:46,292 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, exactly. And, and sending a message, giving them something to understand.
00:13:46,292 --> 00:13:46,332 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm.
00:13:46,332 --> 00:14:05,032 [Jennifer Madigan]
I'm curious about the tension between aesthetics, branding, and accessibility, because I've seen, I've seen these conversations play out. But how do you navigate that with clients? Some people might think to make it really accessible, it can't be very creative. But I've seen your work, and I know that that's not true. So how do you navigate that tension?
00:14:05,032 --> 00:14:24,392 [Meggan Van Harten]
Yeah. Good design is accessible, right? A really good, uh, experience that... Well, I would say a bad experience that I've had, but it's a good example for everyone else, is I was at this conference, and there was an agenda that was printed, and it was black paper with red text on top of it.
00:14:24,392 --> 00:14:24,492 [Jennifer Madigan]
Hmm.
00:14:24,492 --> 00:14:29,952 [Meggan Van Harten]
And for probably the vast majority of you, you're going, "Ew," already because-
00:14:29,952 --> 00:14:30,472 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs] Yeah
00:14:30,472 --> 00:14:42,732 [Meggan Van Harten]
... uh, most people know, especially in the creative space, how difficult it is to read, uh, red on black. It's, it's, like, that's hard for everybody. It causes literally eye strain in order to look at it.
00:14:42,732 --> 00:14:42,752 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:14:42,752 --> 00:14:53,472 [Meggan Van Harten]
Like, why are we hurting our people looking at these things? And then when you add in the factor of, like, this is a booklet that was produced for a conference, so I'm in a dark environment with a book-
00:14:53,472 --> 00:14:53,621 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:14:53,621 --> 00:15:03,312 [Meggan Van Harten]
... that's hardly legible with every session detail on it, right, of, like, all the times, uh, I missed so many talks [laughs] that I wanted to go to-
00:15:03,312 --> 00:15:03,812 [Jennifer Madigan]
Oh, no
00:15:03,812 --> 00:15:06,602 [Meggan Van Harten]
... because I just couldn't read the book.
00:15:06,602 --> 00:15:06,612 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:15:06,612 --> 00:15:14,572 [Meggan Van Harten]
And it's like for somebody with... like me with ADHD, and I'm like, uh, you know, "This is hard and a barrier to entry, so I'm just gonna wing it."
00:15:16,462 --> 00:15:18,572 [Meggan Van Harten]
[laughs] And see what happens. But-
00:15:18,572 --> 00:15:18,612 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:15:18,612 --> 00:15:28,772 [Meggan Van Harten]
... you know, like, I think that's a, that's a signal. Like, yes, you can push the limits of design, but at the end of the day, you have to think about, like, okay, form follows function, right?
00:15:28,772 --> 00:15:29,352 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:15:29,352 --> 00:16:32,732 [Meggan Van Harten]
This is, this is a foundational principle about design. It's not something just purely about accessibility, but that is very true for accessibility. It should be good for people because that's who it's for, and so thus, it should be accessible. And when we're talking about, like, balancing that aesthetics, it's really important that we understand our clients, like, their branding and looking at their branding from a top level of, like, where are the accessibility gaps? So, like, when we build out a brand guide, for instance, we include accessibility, color contrast, fonts, hierarchies, structures, all of those things at that very, very top level. Um, we provide templates, uh, that are accessible so that as people are using those tools, um, they, they have these good foundational design systems that were built from the start with accessibility in mind. And, and I think, like, that's how you, how you really address this aesthetics issue. I don't want people to have to strain in order to read something that I put out. Life is hard enough. [laughs]
00:16:32,732 --> 00:16:33,532 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:16:33,532 --> 00:16:37,412 [Meggan Van Harten]
Please, please don't make it harder by making your designs not accessible. [laughs]
00:16:37,412 --> 00:16:43,742 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. Well, you know, in, in everything that we do, it's all about being able to get the message, right?
00:16:43,742 --> 00:16:43,742 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm.
00:16:43,742 --> 00:16:49,391 [Jennifer Madigan]
And so if the design makes that harder, you're not gonna hit your goal of people getting the message.
00:16:49,392 --> 00:16:49,752 [Meggan Van Harten]
Right.
00:16:49,752 --> 00:16:53,132 [Jennifer Madigan]
I'm wondering what the biggest pushback is that you get from clients.
00:16:53,132 --> 00:16:56,512 [Meggan Van Harten]
Usually around like, "Oh, well, this is the way we've always done it."
00:16:56,512 --> 00:16:56,572 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:16:56,572 --> 00:17:15,332 [Meggan Van Harten]
And then my question always ba- is back, "Okay, well then who are you willing to exclude?" And I literally do this, like, for, uh, for anybody who's listening, I'm pulling out a notebook and pretending I have a pen in my hand, and I say, "Okay, yeah, that's a very important point. All right, I'm ready. Who are you willing to exclude?" Right?
00:17:15,332 --> 00:17:16,792 [Jennifer Madigan]
That's great. Yeah.
00:17:16,792 --> 00:17:16,802 [Meggan Van Harten]
[laughs]
00:17:16,802 --> 00:17:19,592 [Jennifer Madigan]
Because you're not thinking of it that way at all.
00:17:19,592 --> 00:18:07,820 [Meggan Van Harten]
No. And so you tell me. If you don't wanna do that, that's fine. I'm gonna support you. But I'd like to know who, who are we willing to exclude? And usually that's enough to say, "You know what? Okay, I'm, uh, maybe this is the way we've always done it, and that's not what we need to be doing moving forward." Because I never wanna be adversarial, uh, when it comes to changing somebody's mindset. But accessibility, because the approach has been so rooted in compliance, legalistic terms, you know, if anybody out there has ever tried to read the WCAG, uh, W-C-A-G, like, the documentation for it, it's, like, literally written at a PhD level. And they've gotten better over time, but that's how it started. Right? Which doesn't make it very inclusive and accessible to begin with. [laughs]
00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:08,240 [Jennifer Madigan]
I was gonna say.
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:18,180 [Meggan Van Harten]
And so, like ... Yeah. How can we expect people to be passionate about this and included in the practices early if we're not making it, like, truly understandable, right?
00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:18,520 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,140 [Meggan Van Harten]
And relatable, which is why-
00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:20,239 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:18:20,239 --> 00:18:21,900 [Meggan Van Harten]
... I asked them, "Who are you willing to exclude then?"
00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:32,160 [Jennifer Madigan]
So you're, you're bringing up a really good point, that language has a big role to play in this. You know, h- how important is plain language when it comes to accessibility?
00:18:32,160 --> 00:19:00,400 [Meggan Van Harten]
It's very important. I think the one thing that plain language really, um, helps us with is, uh, building really unified understanding. So, uh, my business partner, Jennifer Taback, she is, like, super brilliant, very well-accomplished, highly academic person. And, uh, she was the one that actually told me this about plain language. And she's like, me as, like, an academic person, and she's like, "All it does is speed up everything for me." Like, it doesn't actually ... Like, people can be worried-
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:00,410 [Jennifer Madigan]
Oh, right. Okay
00:19:00,410 --> 00:19:04,240 [Meggan Van Harten]
... when they bring in plain language, like, "Oh, I'm dumbing down my message." And I-
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:04,370 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:19:04,370 --> 00:19:15,220 [Meggan Van Harten]
... 1st of all, I hate that idea. Like, noth- nothing is dumbed down, right? It's equalized. But when people think about it as like, oh, you're gonna lose, like, some of the flavor or the context, that's not true.
00:19:15,220 --> 00:19:15,230 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:19:15,230 --> 00:19:25,619 [Meggan Van Harten]
For somebody who might be able to have, like, a faster reading speed or, uh, maybe a deeper subject matter, uh, expert about that particular thing, plain language just helps them get there faster. It doesn't-
00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:26,210 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:34,470 [Meggan Van Harten]
... create new barriers for them. It doesn't create disinterest. People might even appreciate it more because they can understand it and digest it much quicker and come-
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:34,470 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:41,539 [Meggan Van Harten]
... to, like, a much better conclusion. But it does take more effort. Uh, in order to do anything more simply takes more effort. Uh-
00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:41,760 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:55,000 [Meggan Van Harten]
... so, but there's lots of good tools out there where you can, like, use it to, like, check your words, check, check your reading level, things like that as you're producing these materials. And the other thing that I wanted to say about it, my other ADHD side thought, was that
00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:02,280 [Meggan Van Harten]
when we think about accessibility, it often gets put on, like I said, at the end or maybe on the design-
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:02,320 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,399 [Meggan Van Harten]
... team or the developers. Like, you know, it might get over here.
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:06,820 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:07,060 [Meggan Van Harten]
What, what-
00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:08,480 [Jennifer Madigan]
Here, make it accessible.
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:09,480 [Meggan Van Harten]
Yeah, exactly. Like-
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:09,490 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs]
00:20:09,490 --> 00:20:12,899 [Meggan Van Harten]
... please, yeah, like, use your wand and make it accessible somehow.
00:20:12,899 --> 00:20:13,220 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:19,920 [Meggan Van Harten]
But then when we think about accessibility from the start, it really should be part of the strategy. It should be part of-
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:20,000 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:28,820 [Meggan Van Harten]
... the content. And that's where plain language, that's a, that's an element of accessibility that brings it up much earlier in that process-
00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:28,830 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:35,570 [Meggan Van Harten]
... uh, which just reinforces it as a better tool for everyone all downstream from there, right? Thinking about it-
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:35,570 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:40,900 [Meggan Van Harten]
... early in that content phase, like, why are we saying this? Who are we saying it to? And making sure-
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:40,990 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:54,560 [Meggan Van Harten]
... the content is directed at those people, not in the way that I speak, but in the way that they would understand, right? Uh, that's a great way to, like, naturally pull it upstream in that overall creative process.
00:20:54,560 --> 00:21:03,980 [Jennifer Madigan]
We like to talk about when anyone can understand, everyone can understand, 'cause we work with organizations that might often speak to a niche audience-
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:04,280 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:27,920 [Jennifer Madigan]
... but they really wanna speak to a broader audience beyond that. And so they're concerned that they're talking to this niche audience, and they understand the terms and the, the acronyms. It's like, right, but, you know, if you speak to the other, the broader audience, then not only will the broader audience understand, your, your other niche audience will still understand. Whereas if you tar- if you, if you focus on what the niche audience understands, you're excluding that other audience, right? So kind of-
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:28,210 [Meggan Van Harten]
Absolutely
00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:34,560 [Jennifer Madigan]
... what you were saying before. So when anyone can understand, everyone can understand, which obviously I think is, is really important.
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:52,640 [Meggan Van Harten]
I love that idea, and I love that it's like that bridge building, right, of those 2 communities. Because oftentimes those experts are talking, like those niche experts are talking to that broader audience, and you're kind of automatically applying this layer of, like, kinship between the 2, right? That connection piece, which I love that.
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:59,010 [Jennifer Madigan]
Well, and also if someone like that is having to play a filter, you're losing a little bit of control over how that filter happens, right?
00:21:59,010 --> 00:21:59,020 [Meggan Van Harten]
Totally.
00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:02,840 [Jennifer Madigan]
Whereas if you just immediately communicate in a way that everyone can understand-
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,180 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm
00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:06,020 [Jennifer Madigan]
... then it's being done in the way that, that you want. So-
00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:06,120 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:22,319 [Jennifer Madigan]
... many reasons why you wanna have that, that plain language or, or language that more people can, can understand. I'm wondering what some small but meaningful accessibility changes organizations could make right away, today. What are the, what are the small things that they could do quickly?
00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:44,620 [Meggan Van Harten]
Does your brand guide have an accessibility policy or practical steps of making your designs more accessible? Uh, to me, I think it's, like, a really great natural starting place if you want your brand to come out in a way where it's like that intentionality is followed through on everything that they do. That's where you start, right? Like-
00:22:44,620 --> 00:22:44,750 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:22:44,750 --> 00:23:08,579 [Meggan Van Harten]
... in those materials of, like, how do you give that out to the rest of your staff, right? How is it deployed in your templates? Setting them up for success by making it as approachable as possible. And so that's where I like to bring it into things like the brand guide, into these design systems. And, like, to go back into your brand guide, as long as, like, your main color isn't, uh, uh, non-accessible, which, uh-
00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:08,940 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:09,590 [Meggan Van Harten]
... you know, call me-
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:09,590 [Jennifer Madigan]
Which happens
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:13,420 [Meggan Van Harten]
... if that's your problem. [laughs] Yes, those happen. [laughs]
00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:13,580 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:23:14,740 --> 00:23:17,560 [Meggan Van Harten]
Um, you know, [laughs] I could think of one.
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:18,940 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.
00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:33,720 [Meggan Van Harten]
But, uh, when that's the case, bringing that, thinking about accessibility into, like, your branding, into your design system so that, you know, it's very quickly approachable, uh, to the rest of the, your teams, then you're not having to spend that time, like, patchworking everything-
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:33,730 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:52,500 [Meggan Van Harten]
... downstream, right? Like, you can, you can have the biggest impact. That's one place I like to bring it in. Another place is in that strategy, uh, component. Can you hire or work with, uh, somebody from the disability communities or, like, different abilities and, like, all, all of those things? Like, can you learn from one another, uh-
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:52,510 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:23:52,510 --> 00:24:06,180 [Meggan Van Harten]
... and bringing those people into, like, again, uh, fair, fair compensation for fair amount of work, but bringing those advocates into that space and having them have some input into what you are producing for them. So if you are-
00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:06,370 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:24:06,370 --> 00:24:30,926 [Meggan Van Harten]
... like, directly working with those communities, that they should have a voice in that space in order to guide, like, what should that solution be? And then thinking about, like, even from a presentation standpoint, uh, when I'm on stage, I always do a visual description of who I am. And I know it can seem like such a strange experience 'cause, uh, for somebody who's sighted, and they're like, "Oh, wow. Why, why would you do this?"
00:24:30,926 --> 00:24:30,976 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:24:30,976 --> 00:25:17,056 [Meggan Van Harten]
Somebody in the room, they might be very far at the back and they can't really see me. Um, somebody might be joining in via au- audio only. They might be, uh, listening via phone. They might have a screaming baby in their arm while they're watching me online. But bringing in these ideas into accessibility, it's more than just like, let's remediate our documents, let's make our website accessible. How do you make spaces accessible? And one of the ways that you do that is by showing up, giving a visual description of yourself when you're giving a presentation or a lecture, 'cause you can focus on that more equitable experience for everyone in that environment. We're not making an assumption that everybody is sighted and can see you. It could be due to many factors, right? Temporary disabilities or somebody with a permanent disability too, or like I said, screaming baby in the room, and then it's very hard to do anything. [laughs]
00:25:17,056 --> 00:25:26,376 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. And it's interesting 'cause you obviously think of it in a setting like this where you know that people are listening and they're not... You, you know going into it, right, that that is the experience.
00:25:26,376 --> 00:25:26,396 [Meggan Van Harten]
Mm-hmm.
00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:32,436 [Jennifer Madigan]
But by doing... You know, what you're saying is think more about the fact that not everyone is, is sharing the same experience-
00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:32,866 [Meggan Van Harten]
Yes
00:25:32,866 --> 00:25:35,136 [Jennifer Madigan]
... in whatever setting, right? I love that.
00:25:36,256 --> 00:25:54,396 [Jennifer Madigan]
It seems like, you know, if we talk... I'm sure people are like, "Oh, budgets are tight," or, "Timelines are tight." You know, "How do we get it all done?" What I'm hearing is if you start from the beginning, [laughs] if you, if you really focus in on that, build it in from the start, that's probably your best way to attack those other constraints. Is that fair to say?
00:25:54,396 --> 00:26:06,795 [Meggan Van Harten]
Absolutely. Uh, when we're thinking about accessibility, it's more, uh, cost-efficient to do it from the start. To give a good example, I'll talk about this as, like, uh, for, like, a website, for instance.
00:26:06,796 --> 00:26:07,296 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:26:07,296 --> 00:26:20,996 [Meggan Van Harten]
So let's say there's an issue in the content phase. And so if we think about this as, like, rings moving outwards, uh, from that experience, so catch it in the content phase, that's like a one-time change, right? And then the design change-
00:26:20,996 --> 00:26:21,086 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:26:21,086 --> 00:28:15,036 [Meggan Van Harten]
... okay, well, now we're, we're talking about 2 steps. And then, again, even at the design phase, like in the prototypal, it's, like, still very, like, cost-efficient to catch accessibility errors. And I will say from a designer perspective, they can capture almost 70% of accessibility issues. So having your designer very well-versed in accessibility or access to somebody with a accessibility background, um, and, and knowledge and expertise is a really good matchup. It's not all on them, but, uh, they can do a lot. And, uh, I find that designers are uniquely passionate about accessibility, which I love. Okay, and then moving out from there, if that gets caught in the development phase, okay, now we're d- we're having to make a change in the development phase. The designer still probably has to update their prototype or whatever they're doing. Maybe the content writer has to still add something. So there... It keeps, like, kind of amplifying as you work your way outwards. And then it's like, website gets launched, "Oh, crap, we have this mistake." We have to go backwards again, adding cost and cost every time. And then finally at the end of that ring, like, you have at the... It's with somebody and it's excluded them, which I think is the deepest cost out of all of it, right? Because that person, like, could be a lost customer, could be a lost advocate, um, could be somebody that also really needs your services and can't get ahold of you and is completely blocked and, and, and having that barrier of access. And so ultimately, I think that is the, the biggest cost to all of these things, but I think by the end of that ring, it's something like 30 times your original cost, right? If you, if you think about, like, how far along in that process and how many touch points, you know, something like a web product has by the end of it. So it's really important to think about it as early. Uh, don't patchwork at the end. Uh, nobody likes a Frankenstein product. [laughs] And alternative experiences are, are not always equitable, so they're-
00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:15,496 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:28:15,496 --> 00:28:23,796 [Meggan Van Harten]
... we need to, we need to be really mindful about, like, when they come into play 'cause I hear you, Jenny. Like, budgets are getting tighter every year it seems, right?
00:28:23,796 --> 00:28:24,276 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:28:24,276 --> 00:28:24,826 [Meggan Van Harten]
And so we have-
00:28:24,826 --> 00:28:24,826 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:28:24,826 --> 00:28:43,256 [Meggan Van Harten]
... to be really selective about how we do these things. Doesn't mean that remediation doesn't have a space and a place to, to help us with, uh, some of these making things accessible, but there's ways where we can embed it from the start and save ourselves a whole lot of hassle down the road.
00:28:43,256 --> 00:28:50,436 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I always learn so much from these conversations, and I really appreciate your time.
00:28:50,436 --> 00:28:51,046 [Meggan Van Harten]
Thank you, Jenny.
00:28:51,046 --> 00:29:05,576 [Jennifer Madigan]
[upbeat music] That's it for today's episode of Message Received. If you enjoyed listening, follow or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can find more from Syntax Strategic on LinkedIn and at syntaxstrategic.ca. I'm Jennifer Madigan.