In this episode of Message Received, host Jennifer Madigan speaks with David Gaylord, Co-Founder and CEO of Bushbalm, about what it takes to build a brand in a category most people aren't comfortable talking about. They explore how Bushbalm found its voice through in-person conversations with early customers, why high engagement doesn't always mean positive brand impact, and how the company has evolved from UGC-driven marketing to intentional, visually compelling branded content.
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:28,840 [Jennifer Madigan]
[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to Message Received, a podcast by Syntax. I'm Jennifer Matigan. On this show, we talk about how messages actually land, how strategy, storytelling, and audience insights come together, and why some ideas cut through while others don't. Each episode, I'll sit down with people who shape narratives for a living, leaders, builders, and communicators who understand what you say and how you say it really matters. Let's get into it.
00:00:30,520 --> 00:01:21,320 [Jennifer Madigan]
Building a brand people trust is hard. Building one in a category not many people are talking about is something else entirely. Marketing and communications shape how people understand a product, what they expect from it, and whether they feel confident enough to try it. Get it wrong and it doesn't matter how good the product is. Get it right and you can turn something awkward into something people are actively recommending. My guest today is David Gaylard, co-founder and CEO of Bushbalm, an Ottawa-based brand that started with a cheeky name and a product people weren't exactly actively googling, and grew into a widely recognized name and popular series of products. Today, we're getting into what it looks like to build a brand voice in a taboo category, how your messaging has to evolve as you scale, and what David has learned about turning bold creative into real lasting growth. David, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:22,880 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. No, super excited to be here.
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:28,780 [Jennifer Madigan]
So for those who might not already know Bushbalm, tell us, you know, what it is and how did it all get started.
00:01:28,780 --> 00:02:33,400 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. So it was actually in 2016. I was, like, really early in my career. Uh, I- it was my first job. I, I started at Shopify. So I was working there, and Shopify was always big on starting a business and using the platform. And it actually wasn't my idea, but a friend of mine at work, him and his wife were on their honeymoon, and kind of what was born out of it was the concept that razor burn shouldn't exist on a honeymoon. And they had the idea and the name Bushbalm, and then my background from school was more around, like, digital marketing, so I jumped in with them. Um, so it was us three. So I did digital marketing, Tim did operations, kind of all that, and then Mel is, like, a beautiful, gifted graphic designer. So it was, like, a really good pair. And yeah, the, the original concept was very specific. It was kind of like a product to freshen up down there. It also helps the skin. So razor burn, ingrown hairs was kind of our, our niche. Um, but we, we really didn't take off, uh, until around 2020. So it, it took at least four years to get, uh, actual traction.
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,520 [Jennifer Madigan]
What was it, when you think back to those early days, that got you that initial real traction?
00:02:38,520 --> 00:03:16,400 [David Gaylord]
What was great about not having it as your full-time job is you kind of could go slow. So we didn't spend that much money in the first few years on marketing at all, and then by year four we started to figure out, um... Well, first off, we had a bigger product line. We added, I'd say, two other items that made it so e-commerce, we had, like, a bigger basket size, which made more sense. Um, and then yeah, we started to do, like, more paid ads, whether it was, like, Facebook, Instagram, all of that. Um, and that was when we started to really hit kind of a real scale. And then our professional channel, we now supply and sell to just over 20,000 waxing salons.
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:16,540 [Jennifer Madigan]
Wow.
00:03:16,540 --> 00:03:24,820 [David Gaylord]
But that's been a pretty new channel for us over the last, like, three years. And surprisingly, that's now our biggest channel at the company.
00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:37,320 [Jennifer Madigan]
You're operating in a space outside of those spas a- and places like that, but a space where not many people are, are typically talking about. How did that shape how intentional you had to be about language when you were looking at that marketing-
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:37,660 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:03:37,660 --> 00:03:39,060 [Jennifer Madigan]
... and communications?
00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:52,780 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. When we started, a- and today, like, if you look at the concept of hair removal, it's a really taboo category. There's... Well, first off, everyone thinks, uh, waxing is extremely painful. Like, if you think about 40-Year-Old Virgin-
00:03:52,780 --> 00:03:52,850 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:54,600 [David Gaylord]
... that scene is, like, iconic.
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:54,860 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:03:54,860 --> 00:04:06,240 [David Gaylord]
So waxing is horribly painful. Everyone sees shaving as, like, a chore that they don't wanna do. Um, hair removal creams are, like, toxic and terrible, and everyone recognizes the smell, right?
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:06,600 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:04:06,600 --> 00:05:04,460 [David Gaylord]
And then there's this weird thing around people expect to get razor burn and ingrown hairs, whereas it would almost be like using your face cream and expecting to get acne. Like, it- it's, like, a weird dynamic, so that's kinda what we've been up against. And then the last part is obviously, like, people naturally don't wanna talk about taboo subjects, so we try to do it in a more, like, playful, fun way. And, um, a lot of people think, like, oh, when Manscaped was a big brand at the time and they were kind of doing that, but when we launched, like, Manscaped really wasn't, like, a big brand at the time. It was, like, tiny. So yeah, we took, like, a fun nature to it, and then what's been really helpful is, uh, like, TikTok, Instagram, people have gotten much more confident in being vulnerable about taboo topics. So nowadays, like, it's kinda normal to talk about razor burn, whereas when we launched, those first four years, nobody was like-
00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:04,600 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:11,520 [David Gaylord]
... like, we, we, we had it to the point where people didn't want our name Bushbalm on their packages when they got shipped to them.
00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:11,990 [Jennifer Madigan]
Oh, really?
00:05:11,990 --> 00:05:14,650 [David Gaylord]
'Cause, 'cause they were so, like, embarrassed or whatever-
00:05:14,650 --> 00:05:14,650 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:05:14,650 --> 00:05:21,880 [David Gaylord]
... it would be. Whereas now, like, we have our logo, like, it's a big thing. Um, but yeah, that's changed over kinda 10 years.
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,010 [Jennifer Madigan]
I love – I was reading an article where you talked about going to, I think it was an Etsy event or something-
00:05:27,010 --> 00:05:27,030 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:05:27,030 --> 00:05:38,820 [Jennifer Madigan]
... early on. Can you tell me a bit about this idea of, you know, finding out how your consumers or customers are actually talking about those things and how that fed into some of your marketing and communications?
00:05:38,820 --> 00:06:19,156 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. I, I think just in general... Well, nowadays, like, digital is kind of everything, and everyone's all about digital. For us, in the early days, yeah, we did that, an Etsy show, which is, like, in person with a little tiny booth, and every day for three days people would ask us questions and try to understand the business, and that, that, like, really helped inform the language we use. And I find that's something that people don't do enough, is, like, go physically either talk to customers or look at the shelf you're on.And try to understand, like, what would connect, what would stand out. And that, yeah, that show, it literally led to, like, our hero web tagline for probably, like, three or four years, and then we started to kinda take off couple years after that.
00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:22,775 [Jennifer Madigan]
So how do you do that kind of thing now, or do you? How do you continue that?
00:06:22,776 --> 00:06:50,336 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. So we do it a lot on our professional side. So we work with aestheticians constantly. So we've got, uh, just trade shows we go to, and we meet with them and chat with them. Um, and then our product development team is doing a lot more of it, whether it's, uh, like testing products with them, getting their feedback. Um, and then we do just so many surveys is kind of the, the truth. Surveys are the easiest to do, all the way to like the har- the hardest to do is, like, a pure clinical trial.
00:06:51,356 --> 00:07:19,616 [David Gaylord]
So we're kind of doing a mix of all these things. Like, we just did our first-ever clinical trial, um, and we do a ton of surveys across the board. The biggest thing for me is, like, in person, if you can talk to someone about their experience and hear it, like, firsthand, it, it makes a huge difference, as well as, like, seeing in situ, whether it's a retail shelf or a spa shelf, what it looks like and how they're merchandising it. That actually makes a huge difference as well.
00:07:19,616 --> 00:07:27,916 [Jennifer Madigan]
You just mentioned there that you, you speak to both consumers and professionals through Bushbalm and Bushbalm Pro. So how do those audiences pull you in, in different directions, or do they?
00:07:27,916 --> 00:08:59,776 [David Gaylord]
They could, and they can, and I, I think our job now is, like, how do we make all... Like, Bushbalm as a company be, like, one entity. And then I, I would love to see our professional waxing salons, like, really communicate with our consumers who are kind of going to waxing salons. And if Bushbalm can send clients to a waxing salon and clients can send them to Bushbalm, like, it's this really good flywheel. We're trying to build that as best we can, and the typical challenge is, uh, channel conflict. Like, oh, I'm, I'm a waxing salon, I don't wanna see your product sold at Walmart or Sephora. That's something we're... I think we're doing a really intentional job of navigating and making sure we have exclusive products for professionals. But also, at a higher level, we're going through this process right now with Bushbalm is we're actually creating, like, a new brand. A new brand, what, who we are, our mission, our vision, kind of the pillars to the brand. When you read it, the new version, it really goes into something that fits for our full company versus it being, "This is the brand for Bushbalm Pro. This is our consumer brand." So we, we kind of do it in different ways, and you want... For us, we wanna do it without losing the culture of, like, the pro channel for us is such a different culture than the consumer, but they really can bounce off each other in, in good ways. We just have to figure out how to kind of navigate the company towards, uh, what that looks like.
00:08:59,776 --> 00:09:07,756 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. That's interesting. But you definitely want that sort of authenticity to be shining through everything, no matter who you're talking to.
00:09:07,816 --> 00:09:24,396 [David Gaylord]
Yeah, exactly. And how I see it typically is, like, a lot of brands just communicate where you can buy them, and it's like, "Go to Amazon." And then the next day it's like, "Go to Whole Foods." And then the next day it's like, "Go to Walmart." And that, like, doesn't really connect to, like, a higher purpose.
00:09:24,396 --> 00:09:24,856 [Jennifer Madigan]
Hmm.
00:09:24,856 --> 00:09:33,876 [David Gaylord]
Whereas we're trying to get to a place where on our consumer side, like, we're giving amazing advice on hair removal, and then on the professional side,
00:09:34,976 --> 00:09:51,476 [David Gaylord]
it's a little different, and it's more so we're trying to build a community of estheticians who can, like, teach each other and learn from each other and kinda grow their businesses. The channels are different, they have different purposes, but we don't wanna just tell people, like, "Go shop us at this, this, this, this." It's a bit more intentional than, than that.
00:09:52,536 --> 00:09:59,116 [Jennifer Madigan]
How important was it, or is it maybe still, to have a bit of an education piece? You just talked about, like, talking-
00:09:59,116 --> 00:09:59,156 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:09:59,156 --> 00:10:08,296 [Jennifer Madigan]
... to your, your clients about hair removal and these type of things. I mean, these products weren't around before you. [laughs] So where did that education come in?
00:10:08,296 --> 00:10:13,556 [David Gaylord]
Yeah, for sure. What's actually hilarious is our category, we, we seem, like, super new and cool-
00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:13,566 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:10:13,566 --> 00:10:20,296 [David Gaylord]
... but it's been around for, like, ever. Like, the, the, the only issue is the previous groupings of products-
00:10:20,296 --> 00:10:20,516 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:10:20,516 --> 00:10:22,906 [David Gaylord]
... were, like, very terrible.
00:10:22,906 --> 00:10:22,956 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs]
00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:27,156 [David Gaylord]
And the formulas were, like, alcohol-based, like, really harsh on your skin.
00:10:27,216 --> 00:10:27,456 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:10:27,456 --> 00:10:32,276 [David Gaylord]
So our education at times has been more about skincare.
00:10:32,276 --> 00:10:32,356 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:46,096 [David Gaylord]
Whereas those were often about, this is, like, a harsh treatment that hopefully gets you results, but you're probably gonna have some short-term pain, maybe long-term pain from it. So education's super, super big, but it's... I'd call it, like, systemic.
00:10:46,096 --> 00:10:46,136 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:10:46,136 --> 00:10:55,556 [David Gaylord]
Like, it takes... In our category, for instance, we know, um, women either learn hair removal for the first time from their, their mom,
00:10:56,696 --> 00:11:01,776 [David Gaylord]
or they, the next highest in, like, the survey ranking is from no one.
00:11:01,776 --> 00:11:03,136 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. Okay. [laughs]
00:11:03,136 --> 00:11:16,036 [David Gaylord]
So, so those are, like, the two options. So for us, a mom teaching their daughter about shaving or waxing, the products that she will recommend are probably 10 years old. They're 20 years old, right?
00:11:16,036 --> 00:11:16,716 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs] Yeah.
00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:23,096 [David Gaylord]
So our category moves really slow. So the education we're trying to do is, like, to break that cycle-
00:11:23,096 --> 00:11:23,196 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:28,656 [David Gaylord]
... and then catch that other kind of 40% who wouldn't learn from everyone, anyone.
00:11:28,656 --> 00:11:28,776 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:11:28,776 --> 00:11:38,336 [David Gaylord]
Going to, like, where they are, that's like TikTok, Instagram, with simple, quick to learn kind of routines is, is our... Yeah, we're, we're trying to build that out.
00:11:38,336 --> 00:11:43,116 [Jennifer Madigan]
It's so funny you say that because I have a 13-year-old daughter, so we're at this stage where-
00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:43,256 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:11:43,256 --> 00:11:57,016 [Jennifer Madigan]
... you know, this is gonna be a thing that, that she's interested in. And so I went out and bought her a nice razor and, and some shaving cream. But, you know, I tell her the story of when I was a kid, when I didn't, did not talk to my mom, I did not talk to anyone. [laughs]
00:11:57,016 --> 00:11:57,416 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm.
00:11:57,416 --> 00:12:03,956 [Jennifer Madigan]
I snuck into a bathroom and found, like, a plastic Bic razor under the sink and dry shaved our legs, and like-
00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:04,326 [David Gaylord]
Oh my gosh
00:12:04,326 --> 00:12:06,936 [Jennifer Madigan]
... razor burn. Like, I can still feel the pain-
00:12:06,936 --> 00:12:06,946 [David Gaylord]
[laughs]
00:12:06,946 --> 00:12:17,914 [Jennifer Madigan]
... when I talk about it.And so I was like, "Don't do that." You know, "Talk to me about it." And then even, you know, she was talking to me about a single. She's like, "How many blades are on this razor? We only use single blades."
00:12:17,914 --> 00:12:17,963 [David Gaylord]
[laughs]
00:12:17,964 --> 00:12:27,004 [Jennifer Madigan]
I don't know. She's hearing from friends, right? But it's so true, this experience of either learning from your mom or talking to friends and just trying it on your own. [laughs]
00:12:27,004 --> 00:12:31,634 [David Gaylord]
Yeah, for sure. And more people are now, like, either learning from TikTok or talking to a friend-
00:12:31,634 --> 00:12:31,634 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:12:31,634 --> 00:12:45,544 [David Gaylord]
... than before. But yeah, I don't- we did the survey, I think it was, like, a year and a half ago, and it was very shocking how low ... Like, people learn either from no one or from their mom, and that was kind of the, the in-betweens was, like, a small percentage.
00:12:45,544 --> 00:12:48,604 [Jennifer Madigan]
Well, again, it's still that thing you don't really wanna talk about-
00:12:48,604 --> 00:12:48,664 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:12:48,664 --> 00:12:50,264 [Jennifer Madigan]
... for some reason, right? So.
00:12:50,264 --> 00:12:51,144 [David Gaylord]
For sure.
00:12:51,144 --> 00:12:58,664 [Jennifer Madigan]
I'm wondering about, you know, what type of ads perform really well for you. I was reading something where you're talking about some more risque campaigns do well-
00:12:58,664 --> 00:12:58,674 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:12:58,674 --> 00:13:03,844 [Jennifer Madigan]
... but then you've gotta balance that with potential censorship on some of the platforms.
00:13:03,844 --> 00:13:29,004 [David Gaylord]
Yeah, for sure. Uh, we've gotten a lot better over the years as well. It's like I- I tried to build, like, a quadrant recently that is, like, impact on the brand, so really positive impact on the brand, and then the bottom would be, like, negative impact on the brand, and then the other one would be, like, engagement rate. And typically, it can be very common where someone's like, "Oh my gosh, this has amazing engagement-"
00:13:29,004 --> 00:13:29,014 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:13:29,014 --> 00:13:46,324 [David Gaylord]
... "so I'm gonna do more of it." But when you actually break it down, you're like, "You know what? This has kind of a negative impact on the brand, so, like, let's not do that." So our goal is, like, things that have a big impact on the brand, and high engagement of course. And then there's, like, a, a category I would say that have, like, low engagement-
00:13:46,324 --> 00:13:46,644 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:13:46,644 --> 00:13:53,754 [David Gaylord]
... but potential to have a huge impact on the brand. So y- we wanna move those from, like, the left quadrant to the right, and then make-
00:13:53,754 --> 00:13:53,754 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:13:53,754 --> 00:14:10,784 [David Gaylord]
... them really, really big. Um, so yeah, we're, we're doing more I, I think it's more branded content now. We do a lot of, like, scent, uh, launches. We do a lot of, like, waxing salon content, and that tends to be, yeah, super positive on the brand and, like, visually appealing.
00:14:10,784 --> 00:14:11,084 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:14:11,084 --> 00:14:15,214 [David Gaylord]
Whereas the world of, like, UGC still totally exists. Like, we do-
00:14:15,214 --> 00:14:15,214 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:14:15,214 --> 00:14:30,364 [David Gaylord]
... a lot of it. But balancing that with other, like, branded content, um, has gone kind of a long way. It feels like this year we've kinda broken out from being just, not to call it, like, an internet brand, you know? Like that vibe that's like, oh, it's just UGC ads.
00:14:30,364 --> 00:14:30,704 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:14:30,704 --> 00:14:37,324 [David Gaylord]
Now we do a lot of branded, uh, ad content that's, like, beautiful and it feels like it's all kinda clicking together.
00:14:37,324 --> 00:14:43,174 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah. I love that you say that, though, because a lot of people think, like, high engagement, that's great. Like you said, let's do more, more, more.
00:14:43,174 --> 00:14:43,244 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm.
00:14:43,244 --> 00:14:48,844 [Jennifer Madigan]
And you know, I often say but you have to look at what, is it the right engagement? Like, is it the right thing?
00:14:48,844 --> 00:14:48,884 [David Gaylord]
Right.
00:14:48,884 --> 00:15:01,344 [Jennifer Madigan]
You wanna jump on a trend just because it's trendy. Is it gonna actually move the needle for your company? So I love that you're learning that. I was, I was also reading about, you know, A/B testing that you do and how it's down to the word.
00:15:01,344 --> 00:15:01,714 [David Gaylord]
Yeah.
00:15:01,714 --> 00:15:05,244 [Jennifer Madigan]
[laughs] Can you talk to me a bit about that, you know, hyper-intentionality?
00:15:05,244 --> 00:15:33,844 [David Gaylord]
We do a lot of A/B testing on, like, the website, and you can see, like, pretty big impacts from very specific things. However, the hard part with, like, A/B testing is sometimes it's, like, incremental wins, which are good. Incremental wins are great. They, like, help you kinda continuously get better. However, we also, or I, I also like to see tests that are, like, business strategy or, like, business model shifts.
00:15:33,844 --> 00:15:33,914 [Jennifer Madigan]
Hmm.
00:15:33,914 --> 00:15:40,304 [David Gaylord]
'Cause those you can have, like, a 10X increase in the business. Those are things that are a lot harder to test, to figure out.
00:15:40,304 --> 00:15:40,524 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:15:40,524 --> 00:15:48,494 [David Gaylord]
But we're kinda trying to blend the two of, hey, we're doing these kind of small, incremental, call it improvements, that we-
00:15:48,494 --> 00:15:48,494 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:15:48,494 --> 00:15:53,884 [David Gaylord]
... make sure to test. Um, just 'cause sometimes it seems like an improvement, and then you get a negative result-
00:15:53,884 --> 00:15:53,954 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right
00:15:53,954 --> 00:16:02,924 [David Gaylord]
... which is kinda scary. But then mixing that with, like, large kinda business model changes that, uh, likely have a, a much bigger impact.
00:16:02,924 --> 00:16:13,804 [Jennifer Madigan]
How much attention to detail then is there on that data, and when do you know, you know, when you need to shift or when you need to sort of see things through a little bit longer and see how it's going?
00:16:13,804 --> 00:16:20,704 [David Gaylord]
It's hard sometimes 'cause there- there's certain tests that you're doing where you're kind of okay if it's worse-
00:16:20,704 --> 00:16:20,774 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:16:20,774 --> 00:16:37,754 [David Gaylord]
... because it, it needs to get you to a certain place. So we're, we're doing one right now, actually, that we're about to launch a new product category. Our website navigations, it doesn't make as much sense for that product category. So we're doing a test just to see what happens by ... It's a pretty drastic shift.
00:16:37,754 --> 00:16:37,764 [Jennifer Madigan]
Hmm.
00:16:37,764 --> 00:16:41,004 [David Gaylord]
But we kind of out of necessity have to do it anyway.
00:16:41,004 --> 00:16:41,464 [Jennifer Madigan]
Right.
00:16:41,464 --> 00:17:00,764 [David Gaylord]
So we really wanna know, like, okay, what's the difference it's gonna make and how it ... And then could we mitigate that risk a little bit by changing something else before the launch? But we kinda have to get there. So yeah, there, there's a lot of those things where it's like what's the total plan over, like, a 12 months or longer?
00:17:00,764 --> 00:17:01,084 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:17:01,084 --> 00:17:40,804 [David Gaylord]
And sometimes the tests have to fit because something else happens in the company. So we're, we're kind of navigating that, and then there's, like, some ... Like, we just launched subscriptions or auto-ship for our waxing customers, and that was, like, a super quick, small test to see the impact on conversion, and basically there was no impact, and then all of a sudden it's like, wow, that rolled out super fast. It's had a huge impact. So there, there's a few bigger things like that, that if you get the right signals, it, within a week, you, you can launch it. But, uh, we have a lot of traffic too, so if you didn't have as much traffic as us, like, you might have to wait, like, a year for a [laughs] test-
00:17:40,804 --> 00:17:40,814 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:17:40,814 --> 00:17:42,864 [David Gaylord]
... to actually be, like, significant.
00:17:42,864 --> 00:17:50,224 [Jennifer Madigan]
When you're making a decision, like, you guys seem to be constantly moving, constantly, you know, adding products, whether it's a new scent or a full new-
00:17:50,224 --> 00:17:50,464 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm
00:17:50,464 --> 00:17:59,164 [Jennifer Madigan]
... new product. So as you're making a decision over whether to invest in a new product or a new channel or a new campaign, what are the kinds of things you're taking into account?
00:17:59,164 --> 00:18:10,244 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. Uh, we do a lot of, like, quarterly planning and annual planning, and the, when you look at the numbers, h- we've kinda changed our mindset now on product launches, especially our scent ones.
00:18:10,244 --> 00:18:10,544 [Jennifer Madigan]
Hmm.
00:18:10,544 --> 00:18:13,664 [David Gaylord]
And before we saw them as, like, a product launch.
00:18:13,664 --> 00:18:14,024 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:18:14,024 --> 00:18:54,580 [David Gaylord]
However, now we see them more as, like, this is a marketing... concept that we do every quarter, that it drives a, a lot of excitement, it gets people back to the website. So some people see product launches as like, "I'm gonna launch this, it's gonna be my new hero," and we see that too for certain things, but with our scents, we're actually launching them purely because they are our hero products. It's a new way to get back to the site, traffic kind of constantly getting there 'cause it- it's really hard to grab attention. And then across the board as far as, like, planning and cam- campaigns, I'd say the piece in the early days we weren't good at was, like, being intentional and, like, planning ahead and
00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:32,990 [David Gaylord]
talking about the shifts in the business. Whereas this year and last year we were pretty good is w- we're doing more, like, communication around this is the shifts, and then our hiring plan kinda reflects it, our marketing spend reflects it. So I, I think it's really just, like, being clearer with your whole team so then they can start executing versus we used to kinda have, like, a not sure product roadmap. Like, would it happen? Would it not? We'd have to invest in it. Whereas we're, we're a bit bigger now that we're, we're pretty much, like, I think 2027 is, like, locked. Like, a roadmap is, like, locked in.
00:19:32,990 --> 00:19:33,000 [Jennifer Madigan]
Wow.
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:33,740 [David Gaylord]
Mm-hmm.
00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:34,180 [Jennifer Madigan]
That's great.
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,620 [Jennifer Madigan]
So as you're thinking about that next phase of growth for the company, what are you focused on getting right?
00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:48,780 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. I think things have changed for me over the last, uh, year, probably around, like, before I was super involved in the day-to-day and, like-
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:48,940 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm
00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:51,460 [David Gaylord]
... giving feedback on very specific things, whereas now
00:19:52,480 --> 00:20:05,740 [David Gaylord]
I'm finding my role is more about, um, giving people, like, "Here's the why behind what we're doing, so we need to do this for this reason," or, or, "This is the reason we need to do something," and then letting them figure out the how-
00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:06,260 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm
00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:29,080 [David Gaylord]
... and where it fits. So I'm getting better at that, and it's... It takes a lot of time to just sit and then write and then share. Like, that's kind of a model. And then the, the, the other piece is, um, I probably shouldn't be in the weeds of how do we do X, Y, and Z, and... But what I'm getting better at is giving people a framework for how to think about something.
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:29,460 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:43,460 [David Gaylord]
And that's been, like, super helpful. Um, it just, it basically makes it so I don't have to go into that conversation, and it lets them, like, move way faster, they're way more confident. But without a framework for, like, that social example,
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:53,360 [David Gaylord]
like somebody might do something that, say, I wouldn't do or someone else wouldn't do, but with that framework, th- they'll likely make the right decision.
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:53,800 [Jennifer Madigan]
Mm-hmm.
00:20:53,800 --> 00:21:18,280 [David Gaylord]
So it's, it's more of that type of stuff to kinda keep everyone aligned on, on what is the right work a- and also just what's the most valuable e- even from, like, a revenue perspective. Like, there's certain revenue that's more valuable than others, so working with, like, finance and people to kinda show that so the team can focus on, "Well, let's try to get more of this revenue 'cause it's more valuable."
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:32,580 [Jennifer Madigan]
Those are, you know, especially the first challenge there you mentioned, that's, that's a tricky one I think for many leaders, especially as a, as a company's growing, is that ability to step back and let your team actually step in and, and do the work, and set them up-
00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:33,230 [David Gaylord]
For sure
00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:33,920 [Jennifer Madigan]
... to success.
00:21:33,920 --> 00:22:07,580 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. It's super scary too, and we, we've done a good job of, like, we do our annual plan, and then quarterly we do these updates. And I find sometimes people are scared to, like, tell people the plan, but we, we've recently read a book called Play Bigger. It's about building a category, and it's a really interesting book, but it, a lot of it's about being, like, radically open about your product roadmap, not even to your, just your staff, but, like, the public. We did that last year with our, uh, we did a summit, and we revealed, like, our product roadmap for the next 12 months.
00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:07,640 [Jennifer Madigan]
Wow.
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:18,320 [David Gaylord]
And it was, like, such a cool event. People were so pumped. So yeah, that, that's been something that we're, we're doing, which gives people more vision of, like, where we're going and, and it seemingly worked.
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:25,340 [Jennifer Madigan]
When you have to, you know, let go a little bit as a leader, how do you deal with the fact that some mistakes might happen along the way?
00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:31,220 [David Gaylord]
Yeah. I think as long as... Like, even i- it's hard in the early days if you're, like, a startup founder 'cause-
00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:31,540 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah
00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:34,150 [David Gaylord]
... like, mistakes, like, could kill your company at some point, right?
00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:34,179 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:22:34,180 --> 00:22:43,960 [David Gaylord]
So you're, you're probably really hands-on, and that transition is difficult, whereas as you get a bit bigger, there's, like, more room to let people take a risk-
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:44,150 [Jennifer Madigan]
Got it
00:22:44,150 --> 00:23:03,919 [David Gaylord]
... and let people fail. So I think we've got that mindset more is, um... And my, my mindset is also, like, in your career, you genuinely... I- if your boss never lets you, like, take on something exciting or challenging or gives you, like, this hard thing to do, you're, then you're kind of coasting, right?
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:04,400 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:14,060 [David Gaylord]
In your career, you'll never remember when you were coasting ever. Like, y- people will be like, "How, what was your career like?" You'll remember the times where you were given, like, crazy challenges.
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:14,200 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah.
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:38,120 [David Gaylord]
You really push, you're super excited by it. So I think we're trying to balance that of, like, we don't want to overwork people in, in a huge way, but we also wanna give people new challenges that they can get, like, super pumped by and also, like, grow in their careers. Um, but that, now that we're bigger, we have the luxury to do it, whereas in the early days, you kinda just had to do extra things out of necessity, whereas now it's, like, a bit more intentional.
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:45,600 [Jennifer Madigan]
Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and taking this time. Really excited to watch where the company continues to grow.
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:46,240 [David Gaylord]
Awesome, thank you.
00:23:47,640 --> 00:24:00,160 [Jennifer Madigan]
That's it for today's episode of Message Received. If you enjoyed listening, follow or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can find more from Syntax Strategic on LinkedIn and at syntaxstrategic.ca. I'm Jennifer Madigan.